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Sticky:New dev blog: With Friends Like These... - New Ally System

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 41	Posted - 2012.05.18 19:26:00 - [1] - Quote My biggest problem is that it doesn't cost a defender anything to bring allies into a war. What this will lead to is groups like mine joining wars as allies for free. All this will do is deter war decs and wreck the merc market. What you really need to do is put in an ISK fee that goes to CONCORD for each ally, and increases for each ally you bring in (preferably, with the same mechanic/multiplier of war decs). This will encourage people to only spend allies that are worth the money (ie good mercs/dec corps) rather than bringing in any old corp off the street. This also has the added advantage of limiting allies based on the ISK of the defenders, similar to how the ISK of the aggressors is the limit to the number of wars they can be in.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 19:36:00 - [2] - Quote Burseg Sardaukar wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: Post expansion war will be an even less viable option for 99% of highsec inhabitants than it is now. This expansion is a joke, and the advertisements that refer to it as "war fueled" are fraudulent. I think your estimate is a bit off. I think a large part of what the expansion's purpose was to correct a lot of the problems with the current mechanics. (except they forgot neutral RR cough cough) If someone screwed you really hard, you'd pay the 50M+ to get get them anyway. If it isn't worth 50M they must not have pissed you off THAT bad. It's what, a couple level 4's? It shouldn't be that bad, unless the guy cleaned the corp wallet out and you used it as your personal wallet... then your prob screwed regardless. It's not the ISK for the war that's the problem. The problem is that defenders can bring in unlimited allies for literally 0 ISK. So the only people who will actually declare wars are the full-time dec corps/mercs. Everyone else will either disregard or hire mercs for an offensive dec. I can say that my alliance will be joining as many wars as we can, for 0 ISK, just for free targets. Many of the merc groups/dec corps/alliances will be doing the same thing for the free decs they'll get.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 19:38:00 - [3] - Quote Eternal Error wrote: Burseg Sardaukar wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: Post expansion war will be an even less viable option for 99% of highsec inhabitants than it is now. This expansion is a joke, and the advertisements that refer to it as "war fueled" are fraudulent. I think your estimate is a bit off. I think a large part of what the expansion's purpose was to correct a lot of the problems with the current mechanics. (except they forgot neutral RR cough cough) If someone screwed you really hard, you'd pay the 50M+ to get get them anyway. If it isn't worth 50M they must not have pissed you off THAT bad. It's what, a couple level 4's? It shouldn't be that bad, unless the guy cleaned the corp wallet out and you used it as your personal wallet... then your prob screwed regardless. And you will then be blobbed into station by the dozen corps that are called as an ally and are looking for good fights and free targets. The price IS an issue in my opinion, but the ally system is worse. The solution is easy for most situations. You put in a CONCORD fee for every ally that gets multiplied by the number of allies you bring in. This fee should be paid every week to keep them as allies in the war, and should be on the same order as a dec fee. That way, people will only pay for the groups they can afford to bring in, rather than the whole world jumping onto their decs.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 19:58:00 - [4] - Quote Hiram Alexander wrote: Just for clarification... If "Mining Corp" (10 members) is wardec'ed by "Evil Corp" (10 members), then... "Mining Corp" allies with "Good Guys" (300 members)... is it possible for "Evil Corp"s 10 guys to create a 1 man alt-corp, say, "Sneaky Corp"... wardec themselves with it, then call in "Bad Guys" (2000 members) to 'defend' them from their own alt, then... use "Bad Guys" in their war against all the others...? Just want to be sure... No, it is on a per-dec basis. Meaning if you have two wars, the allies would need to be called into both wars separately. If you are the aggressor in one of the wars, no allies can be brought in to help you.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:08:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Punkturis wrote: aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue. Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen?
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:11:00 - [6] - Quote Eternal Error wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Nice addition! Now i can wardec A with my main corp B, then offer him my alt corp C as an ally and let A have it against B while my alt corp gets paid for nothing. And if i as much as convince A to "join" C in an all out assault on B and just don't log in or begin shooting A, the LOLz will be epic. I wonder where do this CCP guys get so much naivety. They spend months building mechanics that are born dead because even a special child could figure how to abuse them in less than 5 minutes, and yet manage to feel proud about it... I'm pretty sure there will be an in game mercenary/ally feedback system to help prevent this. Obviously, calling in an ally is at your own risk and you should never blindly trust anyone. Right, but who would turn down free help in a war? Very few people. Obviously the second part of tricking them into dying is more complicated, but not terribly difficult.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:13:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Punkturis wrote: Adriel Malakai wrote: CCP Punkturis wrote: aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue. Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen? I'm not a game designer so I'd rather not comment on such things. Can you point one of them to look this way? Because the number of holes in this mechanic are huge and I'm literally astounded that no one on the game design team saw them. EDIT: That actually depends on which of the game designers was primarily responsible, but I won't name names.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:18:00 - [8] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: Adriel Malakai wrote: CCP Punkturis wrote: aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue. Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen? We will absolutely be monitoring this closely post-Inferno. We have implemented several metrics that make it easier for us to track what is going on in the war system and we will use the data gathered (plus of course feedback from you guys) to make adjustments to the system in the future, if needed. Thank you very much for at least doing that much. I just hope you'll put in a proper fix for this when the ally system gets as heavily abused as it's looking like.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:20:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Punkturis wrote: it's 8:30 on a Friday night, I'm sure more people from my team will post here when they're available Edit: nice posted at the same time as SoniClover Yeah, I always forget how late it is over there. Thanks for the quick responses though!
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:22:00 - [10] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Oh, sure, MercAdvisor. Based 100% on ingenuous customer reviews. Just have a link to a merc alliance's yelp page for reviews.

Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:23:00 - [11] - Quote Karl Planck wrote: btw to all you cheezers talking about RR not being fixed, it is. RR'ing someone will now grant a suspect flag doing 2 things. 1) You get the aggression timer of the person your repping (no docking) 2) You become open to aggression by EVERYONE, not just the enemies of the people you are aggressing No, that comes with the crimewatch changes which will be happening towards the end of the summer.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 44	Posted - 2012.05.18 20:30:00 - [12] - Quote Karl Planck wrote: Adriel Malakai wrote: Karl Planck wrote: btw to all you cheezers talking about RR not being fixed, it is. RR'ing someone will now grant a suspect flag doing 2 things. 1) You get the aggression timer of the person your repping (no docking) 2) You become open to aggression by EVERYONE, not just the enemies of the people you are aggressing No, that comes with the crimewatch changes which will be happening towards the end of the summer. when did you see a date on that? I was under the impression that crimewatch changes were happening with the inferno expansion and cannot find any specifics on luanching at a later date Greyscale mentioned in a post somewhere in GD I thought. I'll poke around and try to find it.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 51	Posted - 2012.05.28 17:47:00 - [13] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: Adriel Malakai wrote: CCP Punkturis wrote: aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue. Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen? We will absolutely be monitoring this closely post-Inferno. We have implemented several metrics that make it easier for us to track what is going on in the war system and we will use the data gathered (plus of course feedback from you guys) to make adjustments to the system in the future, if needed. So, what's the plan now that everyone is doing exactly what I said and running around taking wars for 0 ISK? Especially all of these lovely wars with tens of allies? Thoughts on how you're going to make it so that: A) It's worth dec'ing people again. and B) It's worth being a merc and having people actually pay you to defend them, rather than everyone running around doing it for free?
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 52	Posted - 2012.05.29 20:03:00 - [14] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Adriel Malakai wrote: B) It's worth being a merc and having people actually pay you to defend them, rather than everyone running around doing it for free? Welcome to the free market of EVE. There are no guaranteed income sources and not all actors are rational. Now you understand how industrialists feel about the MIMAF crowd (Minerals I Mine Are Free). I'm not a merc, I'm one of the random dec corps that's doing this because I can. My point was that CCP claimed this was to support a merc business, and then set it up in such a way that it promoted the exact opposite and seems confused as to why this happened. I am merely pointing out what has happened, why it is happening, and (in other posts) what needs to be done to the system if they actually want to promote the "merc lifestyle." Regarding the rest of your post, I tend to prefer something less rigorous than strict contracts. You take out a lot of the risk of paying someone to do your dirty work if they can't scam you. Part of that entire business is the fact that the people doing it "legitimately" have to build the reputation of doing so, and the only way to do that is if other people can screw you over. You make things scam proof, and EVE is no longer EVE. As a side note, you're from EVE UNI, so your opinion on HS warfare is very likely laughable, at best.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 52	Posted - 2012.05.30 22:59:00 - [15] - Quote Still no response? Awesome.
Adriel Malakai Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 62	Posted - 2012.06.13 12:25:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Soundwave wrote: Lallante wrote: Dear CCP Superfriends. With the new proposed war mechanics, note the following: A 5000 man alliance can wardec a 500 man alliance. The 500 man alliance can then ally a 4500 man alliance for free to even the odds, but it would have to pay a HUGE amount if it instead wanted to ally 9 other 500 man alliances. This penalty against smaller, more numerous entities is surely not your intention? Please could you adjust the mechanics so that none of the factors (but particularly cost) scale with number of "entities" (alliances or corps etc) but rather with number of players. It should be free to call in allies until the number of "defender" players equals the number of "aggressor" players. Then it can escalate. Its also important to note that the 2 week set contract for allies should automatically "roll over" if not cancelled by the defender or the ally (including recurrence of any fees, if applicable), otherwise you are creating a huge inconvenience in longer term wars. We've been talking to some of the merc corps/alliances and having no meaningful choice in terms of picking a defender basically nullifies their business. What we wanted to do was put in an incentive to look harder at exactly who you ally with, meaning that successful merc corps would be able to market themselves better. I agree that in an isolated sense, the 4500 vs 9x 500 people is a bit silly, but at the end of the day, making sure you can't just ally a large number of people was something put in to revive the merc business somewhat. We can evaluate that later, but I'd really like to see how people who do this for a living fare with the changes. Regarding the recurrence, we're definitely looking at that. Source Just saying. I (and a lot of other people who actually use dec mechanics) called this.